Comments on: The Dust Has Settled: Day 2 – Ethos http://riddlethos.com/2010/06/the-dust-has-settled-day-2-%e2%80%93-ethos/ We're just like you... But we have a website! Thu, 12 Mar 2015 23:52:50 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Ethos http://riddlethos.com/2010/06/the-dust-has-settled-day-2-%e2%80%93-ethos/comment-page-1/#comment-4411 Ethos Thu, 17 Jun 2010 05:56:17 +0000 http://riddlethos.com/?p=4543#comment-4411 I agree with some of your points, understand others, and disagree with others. I love the horse controls. I feel like I'm in full control after I understand the behavior of the horse, so it breathes life into the horse as a character. I agree that the collision mechanics for the horse are annoying and, frankly, terrible. I understand your camera complaint, but with the ability to "lock on" to the Colossi, I never had an issue and rather found the camera to be pleasantly cinematic. I understand your complaint about when Wander falls down. I liked that it added tension, but I can fully understand how it would completely piss you off. I agree about the dudes shaking too much sometimes. Completely. I agree that there's an inconsistency in Wander's skillset, but it never annoyed me. I guess I figured that fight or flight kicked in when he was scaling a giant beast as opposed to just poking around. Never thought of it from the standpoint of "easy to hit" buttons, and logically your argument is sound. Still, R1 is accurate for gripping as opposed to a face button and I personally never had issues, but I understand your frustration. Now I understand that I'm coming dangerously close to that fine line that defends shitty controls with an "it adds to the mood" argument, but I truly think Wander's janky movements is vital to that feeling of desperation and helplessness against the beasts, and suddenly having a different engine for the exploration would be completely bizarre. Still, I will say that Wander does not control like Mario, and very few if any characters control like him. I think it's intentional and effective. However, I agree that sometimes the same technique will produce different results. I think that's more the fault of collision borders than Wander's controls. I agree with some of your points, understand others, and disagree with others.

I love the horse controls. I feel like I’m in full control after I understand the behavior of the horse, so it breathes life into the horse as a character.
I agree that the collision mechanics for the horse are annoying and, frankly, terrible.

I understand your camera complaint, but with the ability to “lock on” to the Colossi, I never had an issue and rather found the camera to be pleasantly cinematic.

I understand your complaint about when Wander falls down. I liked that it added tension, but I can fully understand how it would completely piss you off.

I agree about the dudes shaking too much sometimes. Completely.

I agree that there’s an inconsistency in Wander’s skillset, but it never annoyed me. I guess I figured that fight or flight kicked in when he was scaling a giant beast as opposed to just poking around.

Never thought of it from the standpoint of “easy to hit” buttons, and logically your argument is sound. Still, R1 is accurate for gripping as opposed to a face button and I personally never had issues, but I understand your frustration.

Now I understand that I’m coming dangerously close to that fine line that defends shitty controls with an “it adds to the mood” argument, but I truly think Wander’s janky movements is vital to that feeling of desperation and helplessness against the beasts, and suddenly having a different engine for the exploration would be completely bizarre. Still, I will say that Wander does not control like Mario, and very few if any characters control like him. I think it’s intentional and effective.

However, I agree that sometimes the same technique will produce different results. I think that’s more the fault of collision borders than Wander’s controls.

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By: 7thCircle http://riddlethos.com/2010/06/the-dust-has-settled-day-2-%e2%80%93-ethos/comment-page-1/#comment-4409 7thCircle Thu, 17 Jun 2010 05:36:59 +0000 http://riddlethos.com/?p=4543#comment-4409 I do like the game and I don't need to let off steam about it, so don't give me an angry voice in your head as you read this. Think like I'm just flatly stating this apathetically. The camera does horrible things to the point that I sometimes wonder if the developers made the camera stupid on purpose so the game is harder. The horse intentionally stands in your way. I've tried finding ways to kill it in colossus battles where the damn thing keeps crossing my path and blocking my view when I'm already fighting the camera constantly, but it is immortal. The horse controls themselves are terrible. The most frustrating part of the game for me is getting to each colossus, and the horse's annoying desire not to run in straight lines, or after I pull it to the side, having it turn right back to the direction it was facing before, or when a tiny shrub is in the way and the horse comes to a dead stop and takes several seconds to get back to a decent speed. During colossus fights, I guess I want the game to have an Assassin's Creed 2 level of tightness. I'm not saying I expect to sprint up the thing's leg right up to its head, but the platforming has lots of pauses and stutters built into the motions. The protagonist's movements in general are janky and awkward, which I assume was done on purpose, but I wish it was implemented in a way that didn't make climbing around, jumping, and catching ledges feel so jerky. Combined with the camera issues, a lot of times I feel like I give the game an input, and fall, then give it the exact same input in the exact same spot the next time, only this time I succeed and catch the next ledge. The easiest buttons to press -- X and Square -- do the least useful things while platforming. The most used buttons -- Triangle and R1 -- are awkward to press and hold while also holding the controller. Weapon switching is a disaster, and when I need to change weapons quickly while running, which is necessary in some fights, I've had to bring my right hand over to the d-pad while my left hand used the analog stick, which feels retarded. The colossi trying to shake you off is crucial, and I love it, and it's important to the game. But damn some of them shake too much. Once I've figured out how to scale the thing, I get annoyed when it shakes so often and so long, I just sit there, bored, holding R1, waiting for it to stop. It puts a pause in the game right when I'm ready for the climax. In many cases it's not a big deal, but for a few of the ones I've killed it's been distracting and annoying when they shake so much. Then there's the inconsistency in the protagonist's movements. For the most part he's awkward and janky, as I complained earlier, but then when he can hold on to a colossus's fur with one hand while it shakes with tons and tons of torque, it makes me wish he was that resilient when it came to platforming. His iron grip is that nasty, but he grunts while he slowly shimmies around walls? He has to stop to unsheathe his sword? When standing, a colossus barely moves and he tumbles off the side? And when certain hits knock him out, it infuriates me. You just sit there, looking at him, lying there, doing nothing, and you wait. And it lasts for several seconds. And this one bitchface colossus attacks so quickly, he was capable of hitting me multiple times before I could even get up. I found myself wishing he did more damage, because a game over and a reload would be faster than watching the protagonist get tossed around by attack after attack. Uh. That's it. Just the camera, the button mapping, the pauses in movement, the stupid ass horse, the everlasting colossus shakes, and platforming controls that are super loose. When several of them combine -- like when I'm climbing a colossus, miss a jump even though I felt like I hit the buttons right, then the camera pans away so I can't see my character, then the colossus shakes and I hold R1 for a good while, then my grip gives up and I fall to the ground unconscious for 6 seconds, and just as I get up the horse runs in my way as I try to move and the colossus smacks me with lightning bullets and I lay unconscious for another 6 seconds, and then, finally, I get to start over climbing it again, I wonder why people love this game so much. I want that minute of my life back each time it happens. But I like it. It truly feels like I'm scaling a giant lovable puppy, and then stabbing it in the head over and over until it dies with a sympathetic whimper and makes me feel like the most horrible person on Earth. I just wish it didn't frustrate me 90% of the time. I do like the game and I don’t need to let off steam about it, so don’t give me an angry voice in your head as you read this. Think like I’m just flatly stating this apathetically.

The camera does horrible things to the point that I sometimes wonder if the developers made the camera stupid on purpose so the game is harder. The horse intentionally stands in your way. I’ve tried finding ways to kill it in colossus battles where the damn thing keeps crossing my path and blocking my view when I’m already fighting the camera constantly, but it is immortal. The horse controls themselves are terrible. The most frustrating part of the game for me is getting to each colossus, and the horse’s annoying desire not to run in straight lines, or after I pull it to the side, having it turn right back to the direction it was facing before, or when a tiny shrub is in the way and the horse comes to a dead stop and takes several seconds to get back to a decent speed.

During colossus fights, I guess I want the game to have an Assassin’s Creed 2 level of tightness. I’m not saying I expect to sprint up the thing’s leg right up to its head, but the platforming has lots of pauses and stutters built into the motions. The protagonist’s movements in general are janky and awkward, which I assume was done on purpose, but I wish it was implemented in a way that didn’t make climbing around, jumping, and catching ledges feel so jerky. Combined with the camera issues, a lot of times I feel like I give the game an input, and fall, then give it the exact same input in the exact same spot the next time, only this time I succeed and catch the next ledge.

The easiest buttons to press — X and Square — do the least useful things while platforming. The most used buttons — Triangle and R1 — are awkward to press and hold while also holding the controller. Weapon switching is a disaster, and when I need to change weapons quickly while running, which is necessary in some fights, I’ve had to bring my right hand over to the d-pad while my left hand used the analog stick, which feels retarded.

The colossi trying to shake you off is crucial, and I love it, and it’s important to the game. But damn some of them shake too much. Once I’ve figured out how to scale the thing, I get annoyed when it shakes so often and so long, I just sit there, bored, holding R1, waiting for it to stop. It puts a pause in the game right when I’m ready for the climax. In many cases it’s not a big deal, but for a few of the ones I’ve killed it’s been distracting and annoying when they shake so much.

Then there’s the inconsistency in the protagonist’s movements. For the most part he’s awkward and janky, as I complained earlier, but then when he can hold on to a colossus’s fur with one hand while it shakes with tons and tons of torque, it makes me wish he was that resilient when it came to platforming. His iron grip is that nasty, but he grunts while he slowly shimmies around walls? He has to stop to unsheathe his sword? When standing, a colossus barely moves and he tumbles off the side?

And when certain hits knock him out, it infuriates me. You just sit there, looking at him, lying there, doing nothing, and you wait. And it lasts for several seconds. And this one bitchface colossus attacks so quickly, he was capable of hitting me multiple times before I could even get up. I found myself wishing he did more damage, because a game over and a reload would be faster than watching the protagonist get tossed around by attack after attack.

Uh. That’s it. Just the camera, the button mapping, the pauses in movement, the stupid ass horse, the everlasting colossus shakes, and platforming controls that are super loose. When several of them combine — like when I’m climbing a colossus, miss a jump even though I felt like I hit the buttons right, then the camera pans away so I can’t see my character, then the colossus shakes and I hold R1 for a good while, then my grip gives up and I fall to the ground unconscious for 6 seconds, and just as I get up the horse runs in my way as I try to move and the colossus smacks me with lightning bullets and I lay unconscious for another 6 seconds, and then, finally, I get to start over climbing it again, I wonder why people love this game so much. I want that minute of my life back each time it happens.

But I like it. It truly feels like I’m scaling a giant lovable puppy, and then stabbing it in the head over and over until it dies with a sympathetic whimper and makes me feel like the most horrible person on Earth. I just wish it didn’t frustrate me 90% of the time.

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By: Ethos http://riddlethos.com/2010/06/the-dust-has-settled-day-2-%e2%80%93-ethos/comment-page-1/#comment-4403 Ethos Thu, 17 Jun 2010 04:58:15 +0000 http://riddlethos.com/?p=4543#comment-4403 Yeah, I don't expect SS to be better than OoT or LttP. I'll obviously keep you posted. And what about the controls bothers you with SotC? I've played it recently and haven't been bothered... Yeah, I don’t expect SS to be better than OoT or LttP. I’ll obviously keep you posted.

And what about the controls bothers you with SotC? I’ve played it recently and haven’t been bothered…

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By: 7thCircle http://riddlethos.com/2010/06/the-dust-has-settled-day-2-%e2%80%93-ethos/comment-page-1/#comment-4402 7thCircle Thu, 17 Jun 2010 04:56:36 +0000 http://riddlethos.com/?p=4543#comment-4402 I'm with Ethan there. The new Zelda graphics style is better and more inspired than TP's was. It reminded me of LttP's style or child-Link's world in Ocarina. Definitely a great move that makes it look mature without overly relying on cold, dark, and saturated colors like TP did. I didn't like Wind Waker's look, but I'm cool with Zelda having a colorful, happy world. Now does that mean I'll buy it? No. Not unless someone I know well and trust convinces me that it's better than LttP and OoT. I'm definitely over Zelda games. Side note: I finally started Shadow of the Colossus this week, and I'm disappointed. No one warned me that the interface was a trainwreck. The artsy uniqueness of it is amazing, yes, but I expected less completely-awful-in-every-way controls from such a recent game that so many people love. I should admit, though, that I have a very low level of patience for spotty 3D platforming. I’m with Ethan there. The new Zelda graphics style is better and more inspired than TP’s was. It reminded me of LttP’s style or child-Link’s world in Ocarina. Definitely a great move that makes it look mature without overly relying on cold, dark, and saturated colors like TP did. I didn’t like Wind Waker’s look, but I’m cool with Zelda having a colorful, happy world.

Now does that mean I’ll buy it? No. Not unless someone I know well and trust convinces me that it’s better than LttP and OoT. I’m definitely over Zelda games.

Side note: I finally started Shadow of the Colossus this week, and I’m disappointed. No one warned me that the interface was a trainwreck. The artsy uniqueness of it is amazing, yes, but I expected less completely-awful-in-every-way controls from such a recent game that so many people love. I should admit, though, that I have a very low level of patience for spotty 3D platforming.

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By: Ethos http://riddlethos.com/2010/06/the-dust-has-settled-day-2-%e2%80%93-ethos/comment-page-1/#comment-4401 Ethos Thu, 17 Jun 2010 04:51:55 +0000 http://riddlethos.com/?p=4543#comment-4401 I was going to make the distinction, but I assumed that you would assume it. I was going to make the distinction, but I assumed that you would assume it.

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By: SiliconNooB http://riddlethos.com/2010/06/the-dust-has-settled-day-2-%e2%80%93-ethos/comment-page-1/#comment-4400 SiliconNooB Thu, 17 Jun 2010 04:51:17 +0000 http://riddlethos.com/?p=4543#comment-4400 I liked Zelda on the NES and SNES, IMO they looked more like Zelda than the new stuff, 3D Zelda looks like 3D Zelda ... I liked Zelda on the NES and SNES, IMO they looked more like Zelda than the new stuff, 3D Zelda looks like 3D Zelda …

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By: Ethos http://riddlethos.com/2010/06/the-dust-has-settled-day-2-%e2%80%93-ethos/comment-page-1/#comment-4399 Ethos Thu, 17 Jun 2010 04:19:55 +0000 http://riddlethos.com/?p=4543#comment-4399 Yes, but you also don't really care for Zelda and so don't have your eye on it in the same way. People freaked at at Diablo 3's graphics and it just looked like Diablo to me. Yes, but you also don’t really care for Zelda and so don’t have your eye on it in the same way.
People freaked at at Diablo 3’s graphics and it just looked like Diablo to me.

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By: SiliconNooB http://riddlethos.com/2010/06/the-dust-has-settled-day-2-%e2%80%93-ethos/comment-page-1/#comment-4396 SiliconNooB Wed, 16 Jun 2010 22:35:39 +0000 http://riddlethos.com/?p=4543#comment-4396 I thought Twilight Princess just looked like a Zelda game ... I thought Twilight Princess just looked like a Zelda game …

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By: Ethos http://riddlethos.com/2010/06/the-dust-has-settled-day-2-%e2%80%93-ethos/comment-page-1/#comment-4395 Ethos Wed, 16 Jun 2010 22:26:01 +0000 http://riddlethos.com/?p=4543#comment-4395 Like I said in the article: "The Twilight Princess/Wind Waker hybrid has breathed personality back into the way Zelda looks. I just hope the game follows suit" I said it has breathed personality back into the way it LOOKS, and I hope the game follows suit. Like I said in the article:
“The Twilight Princess/Wind Waker hybrid has breathed personality back into the way Zelda looks. I just hope the game follows suit”
I said it has breathed personality back into the way it LOOKS, and I hope the game follows suit.

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By: Ethos http://riddlethos.com/2010/06/the-dust-has-settled-day-2-%e2%80%93-ethos/comment-page-1/#comment-4394 Ethos Wed, 16 Jun 2010 22:25:00 +0000 http://riddlethos.com/?p=4543#comment-4394 Well no, cartoonish does not equal character, Wind Waker proved that, but it does show that the visuals have more character and are more inspired than Twilight Princess was. That is the sort of thing that can spill over. Not saying it necessarily will, but my optimism for the title has returned. I'm not expecting anything groundbreaking, but Skyward Sword has my eye. Well no, cartoonish does not equal character, Wind Waker proved that, but it does show that the visuals have more character and are more inspired than Twilight Princess was. That is the sort of thing that can spill over. Not saying it necessarily will, but my optimism for the title has returned. I’m not expecting anything groundbreaking, but Skyward Sword has my eye.

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